TOOL LIDAR data - available for free for England

[Mr Whippy]

No I've not seen those before.

Some of them look a bit like what I've made myself in scripts, but mine have been for different end uses.

Just watching one placing kerbs, looks nice, but then you end up with intersecting geometry, or co-incident faces opposing each other where really I'd prefer to cut the geometry together, or whatever else.

Again I bet it works great for that kerb design, but almost every track is different in detail and so you need to be able to just write tools as you go along to streamline tasks far enough to make them easy... but not overly generalise too much to make tools that are amazing but only do one thing.

I dunno, maybe I make work hard for myself sometimes. But personally I find this stuff relatively easy. On a race circuit you're gonna have not so many kerbs and assuming you get them in the right place first time then you'll never spend THAT much time working on them.
Assuming good reference materials you should be able to rough out the main track pretty quick. It's all the buildings and custom stuff and 'details' unique to each track that take the real chunk of time I think... and you can't really write plugins/scripts for them



Well I got my script importing huge files now. I did a 24meg file in about 3 mins which is pretty swish.

I just need to re-write some of the offset and mesh creation variable calculations into something more streamlined and clear.


Has anyone found any actual point cloud data available for download on the Env Agency site yet?

They're apparently going to offer it last, so I wonder if they've started yet or still working through the grids. Hmmmm.


Cheers

Dave

 

[Pixelchaser]

marios scripts are explicitly for racetrack creation. you can find info on ISI`s forums. check them out. he requires 20 euro donation to access the seriously good ones.

he can data map a spline and its fully editable there after which is gold I think. also he can alongside that spline system populate a mesh around it from the same data.. I think im going to have to get them. because we are quite literally going no where whilst being subject to some amazing data. so we really need to get with the scripting for what we want to do I think.

 

[Mr Whippy]

There are tons of bits of script around to help already.

For instance, "scripted glue" by Andrei Kletskov is a good one for conforming a spline to geometry.

You can then use other scripts to refine the spline, smooth it, add more knots etc.

SmoothSpline 0.1 by Jon Seagull is pretty good. I've basically tweaked it more and more to suit my needs. Half of my scripts are just re-works of existing ones, stripped down ones, or bundled into bigger functions.



I often build a sub-d level 1 mesh for my main road/track surfaces (more control and just better in my experience, but each to their own in that regard), and then I use a spline conformed to the base DSM/DTM or whatever other data I have.

I then instance that spline and sweep with it, and then use other scripts to iteratively 'smooth', so I can then toggle that too, and THEN I conform my sub-d mesh to that.

That way I retain fairly rapid iterative control from original dataset through to my mesh.

Obviously this isn't totally fool proof, stuff like road crown/camber has to be then done seperately each time.

There really is no substitute for getting each stage done right first time, otherwise the cost is heavy to go back and change stuff.


A full non-linear editing system would be really nice, but even that would end up losing fine control eventually and making compromises.

With this DSM data at 1m, I'd argue that you should get the main surface pretty much spot on from the off though, so there is little 'risk' in my eyes of not getting the general surface near perfect at that point.
From then on in any fine changes will probably be done alongside camber/crown etc, which you'll have to do some other way any way, not inside the original conforming pass.


Anyhow, I digress... lots

If anyone wants any more data just let me know and I'll get it to you. I'm still struggling with 25cm and 50cm datasets, but the 1m and 2m ones are no problem at all!

In the next few days I'll hopefully take the original post circuit list and prep the DSMs then they're right there to download for anyone who wants to grab them.


Cheers

Dave

 

[Mr Whippy]

So I just looked up what data was available for the few tracks mentioned in the OP.

Here is the data coverage for each track mentioned:

Thruxton has a 1m DSM, but the very edge of the SW corner is missing coverage which is a shame.

Oulton Park has a 1m DSM, seems to be full coverage.

Croft has a 2m DSM, and a 1m DTM (strange but true), full coverage.

Rockingham has a 1m DSM, full coverage.

Please list any and all tracks in the UK that you can think of and I'll go through and create small maps like these.

Given time I'll also work through and generate mesh grids in FBX format for them too.


Please to the website owner, if this is useful please copy the images to the forum or whatever as the images may not end up staying on my hosting for any significant length of time (admin edit: done)

Thanks

Dave

 

[Mr Whippy]

Anglesey - No coverage.
Bedford Autodrome - 2m DSM, 1m DTM.
Cadwell Park - No coverage (just out of 50cm area, doh!)
Castle Combe - 1m DSM (about 33% coverage)
Goodwood Aerodrome - 1m DSM (also entire surrounding area for miles)
Knockhill - No coverage.
Mallory Park - No coverage (but close ish)
Santa Pod Raceway - No coverage.
Silverstone - No coverage (a tiny bit of coverage on the southern tip)
Snetterton - 1m DSM.

 

[liquido]

I wonder if you are able to share the files from Outlon Park?

I decided to build that track time ago, but I don't know how to convert the LIDAR data from Uk (ASC) into that beautyfull mesh... I'm acctually working with Pixelchaser on 3 diferent projects (ascari, A45 roundabout, cruise project) and also have Thunderhill in the bag.... but We love that old track and I need to ask you....

what were you planning to do with this data? do you want to build any track from there?

I supose that get a mesh from that data, even if you allready know how to do, will take long time... I'm not planing to start Outlon Park, so if you can help to get a mesh from that place, I am not in a hurry.

Also if you are planing to make one of those Tracks, I can help you... I expect.

You list every Uk track I know... no ideas to increase the number of tracks.

 

[Mr Whippy]

Hey Liquido,

I can generate the Oulton Park files if you are wanting to make that track.


The data is just for the benefit of others really. It's a faff to check for coverage, download, convert and process the data, so I'm just offering a service to help people out really.
From lots of years of experience I know getting a good solid reference is the hardest part of making any track project, and these DSMs make awesome base references for building a track from!


To make the 1m DSM for Outlon Park will take about 1-2hrs tops, so not very long at all. A lot of the time is sat waiting so not hard work.


The only tracks I'm a bit interested in have no coverage haha.
Angelsey, Bedford Autodrome, Cadwell Park, Knockhill. Ah well.

Personally I'm a road fan, so I'll be spending my time making road tracks



Cheers

Dave

 

[Pixelchaser]

Hey Liquido,



Personally I'm a road fan, so I'll be spending my time making road tracks



Cheers

Dave

they`re really easy, its the bits in between the roads that are a nightmare

 

[Mr Whippy]

Well I'm tinkering with photogrammetry capture techniques too.

My next check is to do a walk around my local village in a loop, and then see how well it lines up to the DSM for my local village.

This seems to then cover off the macro concerns of drift, while capturing the micro details via photogrammetry!

But yeah I kinda agree. Roads are easy vs all the stuff around them. Just getting the road right and accurate if you've got no datasets is damn hard!

I started a road project in 2004 ish and the data I used back then was point data from OS maps, contour intersects with the road, and fairly iffy aerial imagery.
Then in 2009 ish I got a Vbox Mini to log the Z data and it got lots better, but still not ideal. Lots of manual tweaks to the road and camber/crown still totally manual.
Then OS Open data made the terrain easy, just 50m grids like this data here. That replaced days of working off contour maps at 10m intervals for about 150 square miles!
Now we have DSM at 1m for some areas of the road, and photogrammetry captures.

It won't be long until we have all the data we want, the real problem will be building it to game assets like you say haha

Dave

 

[Pixelchaser]

the way I see it real roads don't need to be precise, a road is a road and there is no arguing with it given where your attentions are when driving such things, A class roads are smooth flowing, seemingly boring. (SAFE) that width becomes irrelevant if its out by a few cm,s. the most important aspect is signage and everything you see that isnt related to the surface. roads are designed to accommodate the terrain, but within a standardisation etc.so avg lane is 3.5 m wide etc.

we cant have that terrain detail that actually allows us to replicate a road on it and have it in game. yes you can take it to the nth degree but regards terrain we simply cant have it like we want. its all approximation, never direct use of data without serious adaptation and manipulation. the skill that means it appear most of this data is useable is actually shrouded in varying techniques and understanding, its an art form itself just devising methods to integrate any of it

 

[liquido]

Hey Liquido,

I can generate the Oulton Park files if you are wanting to make that track.


The data is just for the benefit of others really. It's a faff to check for coverage, download, convert and process the data, so I'm just offering a service to help people out really.
From lots of years of experience I know getting a good solid reference is the hardest part of making any track project, and these DSMs make awesome base references for building a track from!


To make the 1m DSM for Outlon Park will take about 1-2hrs tops, so not very long at all. A lot of the time is sat waiting so not hard work.


The only tracks I'm a bit interested in have no coverage haha.
Angelsey, Bedford Autodrome, Cadwell Park, Knockhill. Ah well.

Personally I'm a road fan, so I'll be spending my time making road tracks



Cheers

Dave

Yes please.... It will be great.

As you see... Pixelchaser and me, We are working on a cruise project... We love open Roads, in fact I start to make custom stages for Richard Burns Rally and I preffer to work on open roads than make close circuits.

We are making asset objects for open roads... lamps, sings, guard rails.... We plan to upload here every object to share content with everybody....

ask for any object you need, couse maybe I have something similar and I will be happy to make some roadside objects for you.

Did you need something?

 

[Mr Whippy]

Yes everything is interpretation and approximation based on data sets.

Here I'm getting micro data with photogrammetry that gives me enough data to get say 5 width segments for a road (so camber and crown nicely copied) and then smooth across it, and it's pretty damn close.

Macro we now have these DSM for 1m for many areas, so over large distances of 1000m we can check the photogrammetry isn't drifting to far and correct if required.




I guess my idea of roads is those near where I live. So not really modern spec A-roads but roads in the Yorkshire Dales that are quite a bit older and not designed for really high speeds and capacities.

For the road I'm making for example, the general look is smooth, but getting the Z data correct is near impossible without reference like these DSM.
But then that isn't enough, since many corners on this road have overly positive cambers, some are negative cambers mid bend and then mild on the exit, crowns change many times through corners, and there are smaller details like jumps that simply won't come through on lower detail DSM etc, yet are really important at even 60mph under power mid-bend where you really notice them!

This is where the photogrammetry comes in for me because it's getting nearer to laser scan types of detail density and surface data gets close enough to get these general details like camber and crown profiles at least, which is about as fine detail as I think is needed.



I agree with you on modern A-roads generally though. On a full scanned road I worked on, I did an initial loft + conform to a 50m DTM grid and top-down outline on satellite imagery.
I used perlin noise appropriate for that type of UK road (a Free Racer feature), and once the road chunks were updated with a 25cm density grid conformed to the final data, for the most part on the faster smoother A road parts, it 'felt' much the same and for all intents and purposes may as well have been my original loft!

But I know that once the roads got to the side roads, the extra details did become apparent and important, especially when driving at 'illegal' simulated speeds haha.
I know on my local moor road for example it's very safe at 60mph or so, but at 120mph you'd be launched off it by some of the smaller bumps and lumps!

That is exactly the kinda detail I want to get, so driving on these roads is not always about going as fast as possible, but knowing the road and slowing down even when you're going in a straight line!

Exactly the kind of driving experience games like the new NFS completely miss!


I'll start a new thread with my photogrammetry alongside DSM stuff soon any way, it'll be interesting for you I think because you're clearly looking at roads and road type details lots too haha... what a way to spend your evenings of free time

Dave

 

[Mr Whippy]

Yes please.... It will be great.

As you see... Pixelchaser and me, We are working on a cruise project... We love open Roads, in fact I start to make custom stages for Richard Burns Rally and I preffer to work on open roads than make close circuits.

We are making asset objects for open roads... lamps, sings, guard rails.... We plan to upload here every object to share content with everybody....

ask for any object you need, couse maybe I have something similar and I will be happy to make some roadside objects for you.

Did you need something?

Hey Liquido,

That sounds great.

Are you working on UK roads, or some other type?

I've got a bunch of reference PDF for all the UK road signs and standards, and the font I think... so it makes it really easy to build texture sheets full of signs etc.
I also got the specs for the post dimensions and how they are used.
Also some data for the on-road markings too.


Well I'll be working on props too for a project, so once I do I'll be sure to share them here for people to use too


I'll grab the Outlon Park files this week some time and generate the mesh and put a link up for you!


Cheers

Dave

 

[Pixelchaser]

yeah, im capturing the feel of real roads, and you can do 120mph if you are carefull etc.

B class roads and C is where you are at and I completely agree. where I was from originally in Scotland we had many backroads that led to much time spent weightless in zero g .

I cant get with absolute precision of things when it comes to real roads, all I want is a network of interlinking roads in a go anywhere style im convinced it doesn't have to be real. just made by the same standards and enough of it is enough.

 

[liquido]

Thanks you Dave, I also have intention to upload here all my stuff, so everybody will be able to donwload and use in their projects.

I'm worry about make you feel you work for nothing.

I want to make Outlon park, but firts I want to finish some projects, if you make the mesh from LIDAR data and after a couple of months you don't see any update on Outlon park project, maybe you think it don't deserve your time, wich I understand.

I don't want to disapoint you Dave, if nothing dramatic happens I will make Outlon Park.... but some day, after finish some open projects.... maybe it is better to leave it on stand-by and when I feel ready to start, I will ask you for the Outlon park mesh.

 

[Mr Whippy]

Oulton Park 1m DSM mesh in FBX format:
http://www.certainpixels.co.uk/downloads/oulton_park_1m_dsm.7z

So it took me just over an hour to combine and tidy up and export/check/upload and create a preview image.

Not as fast as I'd like. Ideally I'd want to do them in 10 minutes but it doesn't really matter.

A nice example file is useful for people to see how good the data is. If they then think it'll be useful for a project they can just give me a shout and I'll process it for them in return for beta tests



This data is probably great with satellite imagery pasted over the top... however the issue is if the imagery isn't orthographically processed then there will be drift evident everywhere, more on hilly places like this.

Ah well, still better to have more data to chew at than less... especially Z data!

Cheers

Dave

 

[Mr Whippy]

I cant get with absolute precision of things when it comes to real roads, all I want is a network of interlinking roads in a go anywhere style im convinced it doesn't have to be real. just made by the same standards and enough of it is enough.

Yeah I like the idea of this too.

It's just then coming up with awesome ideas for roads that still do feel real and not fake.

With a real road you know it'll feel real haha

I find great creativity is just as challenging as high precision. Both will take time to do well and make a great track to drive in the end.

Maybe I've just cut my teeth so long on 'real' tracks and car projects that I just enjoy that process more

 

[Pixelchaser]

I am the exact opposite of that, I have far to much creativity that leaves me never getting anything done to completion.

good job on that oulton park mesh. how many polys ?

 

[liquido]

Didn't spect you make that mesh today.... I can tell you if nothing dramatic happens, I will make that track.... but please, don't get angry if you don't see updates in a couple of months.

As you said, everybody is able to donwload and test things, so that Outlon park mesh is a great contribution for all of us... Thanks you so much Dave.

We are working on the a45 road for nibbles, that is a UK road, we are making lamps, sings and a lot of stuff for english road.

Pixelchaser discover a pdf with a lot of info about painted road sings, but we don't have much info about sing post and that kind of sings.... if you can share that info it will be great.

We want to make a cruise project with lots of open roads and maybe one little "hillclimb" inside, but we allready didn't define the place to build the entire project.... We want something diferent.


Here some pics from the objects we are making.... still need to work on them.

 

[Mr Whippy]

In the end getting signs info is pretty good from Street View for the UK, since we can look around and get a rough idea of sizes and stuff from there.

I'll try find some time to post up any info I find.

Perhaps worth starting another thread where we can post UK roads type reference material, from DSM, cross-sections, scans, props etc?


Cheers

Dave